Rings and gaskets!

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Rings and gaskets!

Postby peterg » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:28 pm

On Monday I am doing a leak test on the GTA engine....slightly scared its more than just the turbo thats gone....anyone got any idea on the price of a set of piston rings and availability....same for a gasket set? I have my fingers crossed I wont need to do it, but I might as well consider worst case scenario!!!
I'm almost glad Jonathon didnt turn the boost up....could have been a worse mess!!!
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Postby David Gentleman » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:04 pm

About £160 for a full set of turbo piston rings and £45 for each turbo head gasket..
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Postby simontaylor » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:07 pm

I thought you mentioned that the turbo was "very wobbly".

After your leak test, why not run up the car with with the turbo disconnected by removing the CC-IC pipe, then you can be sure it is not sucking oil from the turbo into the engine. Of if it is smoking on idle, remove the turbo completly???
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Postby peterg » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:40 pm

the turbo has gone to see DG already...its not a very practical idea to run the car now!!!!!! The leak test will show whether there is anything wrong. If there is then a bit of fiddling should reveal if its just head trouble or rings. It can all be done with the engine in the car I think, so it should only be a couple of days work.
Just goes to show what happens when you add monster torque to an unprepared engine!!! :roll:

Availability on rings and gaskets??? Are those Renault or pattern prices?
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Postby gt5 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:25 am

Sure i mentioned this on a previous thread? supposed to be the dogs ------- for high boost ect http://www.ferriday.co.uk/copper/copper.html
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Postby David Gentleman » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:07 pm

gt5 wrote:Sure i mentioned this on a previous thread? supposed to be the dogs ------- for high boost ect http://www.ferriday.co.uk/copper/copper.html


But they don't do any for the GTA... :wink:
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Postby gt5 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:10 pm

they said they would make me some up :) :wink:
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Postby gt5 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:27 pm

Just raked out the old email from them re; the copper head gasket, i was tempted when i thought i had probs with mine, surely worth a thought? they must be much better then the standard gaskets at handling high boost & maybe lowering the comp?

Thank you for your e-mail.

No problem making solid copper head gaskets for your Renault. I don't have a drawing for these yet but would only need a pair of gaskets as a pattern to continue. There is some info attached that explains more about CHGs, please read carefully, and if you'd like to tell me more about the job I'd be happy to advise further.

Cost depends on surface area & thickness, but as a price guide expect around £170.00 in 1.2mm for the pair, £12.00 for sealant & £9.00 P&P.

I hope this helps. If you'd like a natter about any of this I can be reached on the number below.

All the best Steve,

Mike Tanski
Ferriday Engineering
01785 621710
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Postby gt5 » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:29 pm

Some more info :lol:

Solid Copper Head Gaskets


Compared with a composite head gasket, the solid copper version has both good & bad points. Its main strengths are that copper is a near perfect heat conductor, and that a “blow-out” is highly unlikely even with high turbo boost & nitrous oxide.
On the down side, solid copper is almost incapable of sealing either combustion or water & oil pressure by itself! It is the same thickness at all points, and will not “fill” variations between block & cylinder head surfaces in the way that a soft composite gasket can (so the thickness of the copper will not have any effect on its sealing ability). Both the cylinder block & head must be completely flat, with the best surface finish you can achieve. Failure to ensure this will lead to gasket failure. Please also pay special attention to the annealing process (see below). Please note that a solid copper head gasket is never the answer to a basic head gasket failure, and should only be considered when the original gasket is no longer suitable. As a solution to a strength problem the solid copper version can be almost unbeatable providing the utmost care is taken during engine machining & preparation.

Sealing combustion pressure - There must be some device present to create extra clamping pressure around the cylinder bore. Choices include-
Wire rings - A groove of a certain width & depth is machined into the block concentric with the bore. E.g. – a 39 thou wide, 35 thou deep groove will accept 40 thou solid wire to give a snug fit and 5 thou protrusion. I would suggest setting wire protrusion to be approx 10% of copper gasket thickness. (Not suitable for blocks fitted with thin wall liners). This is the most “aggressive” method of sealing and is probably the easiest & cheapest solution. For extra sealing a “receiver” groove can be machined into the head.
Ferriday Sealing Rings (“FSR”, Patent applied for) - A special Stainless Steel sealing ring is laid on top of the copper gasket to create extra clamping load. Each ring has 3 “ears” that locate into corresponding holes in the copper gasket for ease of assembly; clamping forces then keep the FSRs in place. FSRs are much cheaper than Wills rings, may be re-usable providing they are not damaged, and are compatible with blocks fitted with thin wall liners. Block & head flatness is very important.
Wills Rings - Are available in various sizes and are often gas-filled. These have been regarded as the ultimate in cylinder sealing & can be found in some F1 engines. A substantial groove must be machined into the block or head - width & depth work in a similar way to wire grooves (see above). Wills rings are relatively expensive and sometimes have to be made to order, some engines will not have enough space between the cylinders to accommodate the ring. It is possible to use the copper gasket as a “carrier” for the Wills rings and so avoid machining a groove. Please contact me for more details.
Liner heights (Wet Liner Engines Only) - If the liner height is set to around 3 “thou” above the block face, then this will create the same clamping load as Stainless Steel rings (or machine the liners flush with the block deck & use Ferriday FRS’s).
Double Sealing – If there is enough space between cylinders an extra strong seal can be created by using a wire ring at a large diameter as well as FSRs. Properly done, this appears to work extremely well, please call & I’ll describe in more detail.

Annealing – Hang the gasket on a wire hook, and use a blowtorch (not Oxy-Acetylene - too hot!) to heat the copper until it is cherry red. Start at the bottom and work upwards, preferably in a dark room for easy visibility, until the entire gasket has been treated. Allow to cool slowly! Do not quench, bead-blast or bend the gasket. Remove oxidation with fine wire wool.

Assembly Suggestions for FSRs, and Water & Oil Passages - Place the FSRs onto the copper gasket & bend the locating “ears” into the corresponding holes on the gasket – use a ballpoint pen or similar. Remove the FSRs until later.
A layer of modern chemical sealant is usually enough to seal the oil & water galleries. My choice is a high temperature non-setting sealant that remains fluid enough to allow gasket movement as the engine goes through the heat cycle. WellSeal & Hylomar Universal Blue also work well.
Apply a bead of sealant around each water & oil passage on both sides of the head gasket, but be careful not to let any particles or bits of debris attach themselves to the sticky sealant.
Place the copper gasket onto the block, ensuring it is the right way up ( ! ), and put the FSRs into their correct position. Assemble the head following the usual tightening sequence & torque pressure. Follow the bolt manufacturers torque instructions, and be sure to lubricate the threads & underside of the bolt head. If using conventional bolts (i.e. not stretch bolts) I would suggest re-checking bolt torque after the initial warm-up period, then again after a period of running. A micro-thin copper gasket or rubber 0-rings can be used to help seal pressurized oil galleries and other problem areas – please ask for more details.

Is A Copper Head Gasket The Right Choice? - I would suggest that if a conventional head gasket is still suitable for your job then this should be used - Solid Copper can be especially useful for high-powered engines that have suffered failures with conventional gaskets, and should be considered only as a hard-core competition component.
Although a similar formula can be applied to most head gaskets, what works well for one engine may not be suitable for other applications; the right combination of sealant, liner protrusion, oil pressure sealing, bolt type & bolt torque must be found to achieve the desired results. No suggestion or guarantee is made that a slab of solid Copper will sort out your cylinder sealing problems, though copper gaskets with FSRs have proven to be successful in applications where other gasket solutions have failed. Danny Kirk suffered failures with all gasket types in his high power Cosworth YB engine, but has found the FSR system to be completely reliable while running 11.1 second standing quarters in his Sierra road car. After over 100 drag-strip runs plus road driving, Danny re-used both the head gasket & sealing rings when he did a “freshen-up” engine rebuild. Help over the phone is available should you need it - speak to Mike Tanski on 01785 621710.


Mike Tanski.
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Postby peterg » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:28 pm

gt5 wrote:they said they would make me some up :) :wink:


But porbably not in the next two weeks when I need them!
David are the prices youve mentioned for Renault items or pattern? Are they readily available off the shelf if I need them?
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Postby David Gentleman » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:35 pm

gt5 wrote:On the down side, solid copper is almost incapable of sealing either combustion or water & oil pressure by itself! It is the same thickness at all points, and will not “fill” variations between block & cylinder head surfaces in the way that a soft composite gasket can (so the thickness of the copper will not have any effect on its sealing ability). Both the cylinder block & head must be completely flat, with the best surface finish you can achieve. Failure to ensure this will lead to gasket failure. .


Fantastic on an old floating wet liner engine! :roll: :lol:
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Postby David Gentleman » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:36 pm

peterg wrote:
gt5 wrote:they said they would make me some up :) :wink:


But porbably not in the next two weeks when I need them!
David are the prices youve mentioned for Renault items or pattern? Are they readily available off the shelf if I need them?


I will find out Monday. Not Renault 'genuine'.
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Postby Stunned Monkey » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:36 am

Having built the TT DeLorean engine recently I can help with this...

The head gaskets for the Volvo B280E (1985 760) are the same as the Z7U gaskets and a lot cheaper IF you can find them. (yes they're different from the B28E / F and Z6W / B29A gaskets. Last we heard Reanult were out of one side of the gaskets, but Volvo were out of the other!

The ring kits are about £25 a pop from Renault and about £10 from pattern places and we ordered 6 pattern ones, got 4 correct and 2 wrong, returned them, got one correct and one wrong, returned that, got the same one back, gave up and bought one kit from Renault and when it came out of the packet, it was definitely different in appearance, though no higher in quality IMO.

Z7U rings are unique to that engine. Shame really because B28E ring kits are £12 from Volvo.
Martin - PRV Tinkerererer
www.delorean.co.uk
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Postby peterg » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:49 pm

It failed the leak test....bigger!!! At least 2 cylinders cant hold 100psi, one would have worked, the other was described to me as critical!!! We didnt bother testing the last 2. I now have it stripped down to the cylinder heads and a full set of parts on route from Mecca parts.
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Postby David Gentleman » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:07 pm

peterg wrote: At least 2 cylinders cant hold 100psi, .


..turbo pressure...? :lol:
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