PeterG and the 21 Turbo boys...

[Alpineandy]

No It's not gossip.
There's picture and a mention of B19GTA in the jan issue of retro cars.
It also has an article with the 21 Turbo boys on a rolling road.

Peter Fame at last !!

Any chance of scanning the page and posting it?
It's murder trying to get to the shops these days.
Bar-humbug !!!

Famous again dont you mean!!!! They have printed at least 6 letters so far and Ive been letter of the month twice too (got some nice books for my trouble).
There are some quite powerful R21s on the rollers as well, but I cant think theyd outrun a half decently modded GTA....all that torque steer and wheelspin.

more fame!...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cumbria/content/ar ... ture.shtml

Didnt know about that one!!!!!!

[Alpineandy]

There are some quite powerful R21s on the rollers as well, but I cant think theyd outrun a half decently modded GTA....all that torque steer and wheelspin.

Really need mr smiths imput here.
IMHO on the Mway/Main roads/ fast circuits They should be close, and when it gets twisty a quadra stands a chance of keeping up (unless it's wet when they'd be leading the way).
21Turbo is a very swift car. It's only let down by the build quality (says me who's never owned one and only passing on heresay...).

I was considering the facts that the 21 is front wheel drive gives away loads of power and torque to a GTA and weighs about the same. Tuning potential seems to be limited and as has been proven time and again front wheel drive just doesnt cut it when you add more power, wheras the skys the limit on a GTA. I'm sure a Quadra does better but it weighs a lot more and if I remember rightly the performance figures were nothing stunning.

[Alpineandy]

I was considering the facts that the 21 is front wheel drive gives away loads of power and torque to a GTA and weighs about the same. Tuning potential seems to be limited and as has been proven time and again front wheel drive just doesnt cut it when you add more power, wheras the skys the limit on a GTA. I'm sure a Quadra does better but it weighs a lot more and if I remember rightly the performance figures were nothing stunning.

years ago when the 21T was current, I sat in paul (arr) sages' passenger seat around croix trying to watch a 5T2 catch us. It couldn't and eventually span off trying.

4WD is very impressive in/on the right car.


I recommend you have a go in the jump seat of an enthusiastically driven one. I think you'd agree that they are excellent value for money....

[BIG_MVS]

The only time a standard GTA will beat a standard 21 is the sprint to 60.

I've had 12 of these cars and rate them very highly. I currently have a Quadra running around 220bhp and it will leave my GTA standing, alright it's the n/a one and not the turbo but I can't see there being much difference in performance when both the GTA turbo and 21 are carefully modded.

Maybe we could get some GTA's down the 1/4 mile next year to have some races to see what times they can do?

I have been trying to buy this month's retro car but I can't find it anywhere, does anyone know the best place to purchase?

Cheers,

Martin

Ive been in a 21 turbo and yes theyre quick, and theyre dirt cheap ( you can feel it sat in one!), but the claims that theyre quicker than a GTA dont stand up! The GTA weighs less (between 40 and 100kgs depending on spec- thats like carrying a passenger), has 25bhp more, has more torque, is more aerodynamic and has more traction! Exactly where is a 21 getting its performance advantage from (other than the perception that because it feels poorly built its going quickly )? As for the 1/4 mile a GTA should excell in that one. Off the line at Harewood I clocked 3rd fastest time behind 2 extremely modified japanese cars and was ahead of several cars that were quicker overall......it gets off the line beautifully with all that weight at the back.
BIG MVS.....the point I was making about modifying is that once you get to about 250 BHP front wheel drive cars are overpowered.....the Alfa 147GTA is an example of a FWD car that has just a touch too much power and it has a very well set up chassis and suspension. GTAs can take much more (I'd estimate mine at about 260 and it needs more ) The retrocar 21 feature had the best 21 at 240bhp and he had had headwork, ecu, turbo, exhaust, intercooler, cams the lot......if you did that to a GTA you'd be getting well over 300bhp!
Alpineandy...all I can say is that the T2 wasnt working properly or was being driven by a donkey....or Paul Sage is outstanding on a track, because the T2 was a world beating car in the right hands (although in standard trim it was down on power compared to a 21T)

Agree, I had a friend who had a completely original Cosworth 3dr, perfect in every way, and dynod at factory bhp. From a standing start to any speed, the Sierra and my GTA atmo were neck and neck, nothing in it. The main advantages I had were the twisties, up hills and response.

While I'm on I might as well mention the quadra (finish my rant properly)...thats another 2 passengers worth of weight to add to your GTA and performance figures that in standard form are surpassed by a modern hot hatch....0-60 in 8 seconds anyone??? Yes a 220bhp one might be quicker than an atmo (170bhp remember) but I dont suppose there'd be much in it against a standard GTA turbo.
What I will mention is that all these cars (GTAs and 21Ts) are 10years old so some will have retained their original performance or maybe even improved on it while others will have lost it through age and abuse. Looking at the rolling road session in RC one poor 21 owner thought he'd be seeing 200bhp and came back with less than a standard car while another was virtually the opposite way round.....cars...dont you just love em!!!!!

What youve got to remember with 21's is, compared to a GTA turbo, they are tuned already!. They have a far bigger turbo, better cams, two intercoolers, more boost (nearly 14psi) , far bigger injectors, better ecu, big valves, better manifolds. Yet they only make 175bhp in this trim. Ive never understood this. There seems to be a massive inefficiency somewhere, I dont know what Renault were playing at in the 80's?

Currently being the owner of a 220bhp Ph3 21 T, a 220 bhp Ph 2 21 T Quadra and a modded Gta Turbo as well as having owned standard examples of 2wd 21T and GTA Turbo in the last year I feel I'm qualified to give some input here. Firstly standard cars. GTA definitely quickest in all departments, 2wd 21 would probably be a close match in 3rd,4th and 5th gear. The Quadra is way of the pace here, 200 kg's and extra transmission losses leave it last by some way. Handling wise the GTA is ultimately quicker but the 21 counters this by being very predictable and safe meaning that its easy to drive right up to its limit.

Mildly modded - by this I mean filter/exhaust/mild boost increase(say 3psi). The 21's respond much better to these mods than a GTA due to its bigger (but still restrictive turbo). I've done this on several cars now and these mods on a 21 give @ 215bhp and 240 lb/ft while a GTA with the same mods will put out about @ 230 bhp and 250lb/ft. The 21 2wd now has a serious traction problem in damp conditions! In the dry the 2wd 21 is now substantially quicker than a standard GTA turbo (remember it has shorter gearing too) the Quadra at this power output is quicker 1st and 2nd gear than the 2wd version (totally due to traction!) but still gets hammered in the high gears. I would say the Quadra is still marginally slower at this level of performance than a standard GTA Turbo.

Serious mods - Obviously dependant on spec but the more power the 21's have the more the Quadra comes into its own - I've seen a Quadra regularly run high 4 sec 0-60's at Trax and such like - a front wheel drive 21 is never going to able to match that from a standing start however much power its got. Very few GTA's out there running over 250bhp but they can convert alot of that power into forward motion with the weight over the big rear wheels.

So to sum up a 21 is unlikely to ever beat a GTA which has been modified to the same extent, but if you have a standard GTA and you come up against a modded 21 you may be in trouble. (As Simon Taylor can testify ) PS Sometime in the new year I should be able to report back on how 300bhp + versions of both cars compare

Remember you can build yourself that 21T 220bhp version for under a grand - in similar condition to a 4 grandish standard GTA turbo. But I love my GTA whereas I have the utmost respect for 21 Turbos

[Alpineandy]

Alpineandy...all I can say is that the T2 wasnt working properly or was being driven by a donkey....or Paul Sage is outstanding on a track, because the T2 was a world beating car in the right hands (although in standard trim it was down on power compared to a 21T)

I think your under-estimating the chuckability of a 21T (provided you 'left foot brake' to sort the understeer). Having said that the 5T2 looked standard and the driver clearly wasn't an expert. Maybe he was still learning about the tail wagging
Plus Paul is a v good driver (pots to prove it!).