What in the name of ................gta Turbo ?

There were a handful of factory cars but they had a Le Mans bodykit too.

My favourite looking GTA ever I think! Saw this car in the flesh back in 2004 (Zolder), caught the bug that weekend...........

CROMADORA CLIO V6 TROPHY WHEELS I WANT THEM

[stephendell]

I went to have a look today and have plenty of detailed photos for anyone that is interested especially engine mounts etc.

The engine that is in the car was apparently dyno'd at 235bhp in a 21T before it went into the GTA.

It's running Renix management on a full 21T engine loom not an Adaptronic.

It actually feels smoother than the V6 turbo lump and revs more freely.

It's hard to find exact comparative engine weights depending on level of dressing (ancillaries) and version. I have seen the PRV listed from 150 (2849cc version) - 170kg and the 2.0 4 pot upto 120kg depending on spec. Does anyone have reliable figures?

Given that the base car was an Atmo and allowing for an engine which is about 50kg less that would give approx 215bhp per tonne which is about the same a GTA turbo with 255bhp so it has the potential to be fairly quick.

Bearing in mind that the starter car was an Atmo with only 160bhp or 140bhp per tonne, the conversion has added around 75 bhp per tonne which is certainly worthwhile. If the base car had been a turbo then the gains would have been much less significant. It's infact a similar step up (in terms of power but not quality) to Mr Holt's Spider upgrade from 150bhp to 240bhp and that made a big difference to performance.

The start price will buy the car. If you can get it for any less that's down to your haggling skills but I doubt it as the donor car was £2K and time and money has been spent. What I guess will happen (if it doesn't sell) is that a little more work/tidying will be carried out until it does. May be even an MOT so you could drive it home with no boost. I'd recommend a trailer though!

In summary the paint is OK apart from the front bumper. Both headlamp glasses need replacing. RH is pretty bad. Ignition barrel needs fitting properly and the wiring all needs tidying up, however the loom for the rear lights is there and works unlike what is stated in the add. An intercooler needs fitting and everything needs a good clean and some tidying, rear brakes need TLC. Windscreen delaminating in corners. But it does run and drive and most of the major work has been done.

The shell is good and door pillars are fine. Colour is good and makes a change from all the red ones. Wheels are Azev C 18" all round and are worth a couple of quid. All the usual stuff is rusty, rear subframe etc.

I'm tempted but I'd want to pull it all apart again and get everything cleaned up and powder coated etc and I've got too many projects already!

Yeah, sorely tempted too, but timing is horrendous at the mo', maybe in a few months time...
Would make a great hillclimb car. I wonder if he'd swap it for my GTA turbo!

Yeah, sorely tempted too, but timing is horrendous at the mo', maybe in a few months time...
Would make a great hillclimb car. I wonder if he'd swap it for my GTA turbo!

I must point out I was there on the day the engine made that run on the dyno. I think that power is the very max you'll get as the boost was on the edge of its safe limit and it was also running with fuel addive (proper race fuel additive too not something out of Halfords) it was running 357 injectors, Cossie fuel pump and regulator larger throttle body. It will see around 220-25 reliably I would say so still be a very quick car.

si21

When I was looking to build a track GTA I looked into lots of options to replace the PRV and nothing was very straightforward. Best options are anything that originally ran with a PRV transaxle which only the 21 turbo can offer anything approaching similar power levels or an engine for a kit car using the same transaxle in one of the midengined kit cars like the GT40 replicas. I came to the conclusion after much investigation that the best engines to use were V8 small block chevy (lightest,smallest and cheapest way to get 400 bhp!), Lexus V8 , modern, indestructible cheap and plentiful, V6's - Audi 2.7 twin turbo - very tuneable but expensive and hard to source, 4 cylinders - Toyota's 2 litre turbo from the MR2/GT4. I don't see the point in putting a 21 turbo lump in - ok it's a bit lighter and you get a little more torque but personally I'd rather have a PRV, at least it's a six, its much smoother you have to throw the same money at it to get it tuned to the same power as a GTA to get much over 230bhp with either your going to have to change mechanical parts like cams so I just don't see the point. If you want up to 350 bhp I'd stick with the PRV as you'll make this with a twin turbo 3 litre and if you want more than this I suggest (a) Use one of the understressed V8's and (b) see a doctor because your probably mad (c) make sure you have plenty of life insurance!

Its not all about the power though Tony the weight or lack of it at the rear end will make for a much more balanced handling car and for a couple of grand Jo from belgium can supply the whole kit to produce 324@ the fly on a remapped renix unit so you can have the best in both worlds all reliable forged pistons in machined liners not the original equipment, cup spec cams and head, you'd have to sort out a decent inter/chsarge cooler.

Si21

Standard Gta set up is very understeery any way - how does less weight in the back help that? Yes it'll oversteer big time when it lets go but unless your a VERY good driver you don't drive rear engined cars that way unless you want to get dizzy very quickly.

I'm not saying that a GTA with a 21 engine is a bad thing I'm just saying it doesn't offer you anything over a PRV - except maybe 30kgs weight saving - alot of agg and expense for that

Feck-it !!!!! I'll stick a PRV in the 21

I also don't see the point .............the PRV can be tuned as cheaply,effectively and if nothing else sounds far better
I'd be sticking newer technology in if ever I wanted a kitcar

[stephendell]

I also don't see the point

There probably isn't one for a V6 Turbo but the black car was an atmo so a different story for that as it would have needed an engine swap anyway for any reasonable performance gain.

Hopefully someone will finish it, bring it to Bruntingthorpe and we can strap some test gear on it and see what it does.

What's the score with Brunt ?I've heard they have 'noise issues ' and can't do track days anymore

Feck-it !!!!! I'll stick a PRV in the 21

I also don't see the point .............the PRV can be tuned as cheaply,effectively and if nothing else sounds far better
I'd be sticking newer technology in if ever I wanted a kitcar

There is a 21 knocking around with a PRV in the front, don't think it was a turbo though just an injected 25 lump Si might remember.

[stephendell]

What's the score with Brunt ?I've heard they have 'noise issues ' and can't do track days anymore

It's been like that for while. We're normally OK though.

Feck-it !!!!! I'll stick a PRV in the 21

I also don't see the point .............the PRV can be tuned as cheaply,effectively and if nothing else sounds far better
I'd be sticking newer technology in if ever I wanted a kitcar

There is a 21 knocking around with a PRV in the front, don't think it was a turbo though just an injected 25 lump Si might remember.

I do Tony I was at Avon when it ran about a 14.5 second qtr; it is a quadra running a 25 turbo lump but he was having troule with the ecu as it would not let him run the boost he required, I think it was only running 12psi


Tony in response to your understeer for the GTA is that not because the front is just so much lighter than the rear with engine hanging out the back it can only be working against putting grip down at the front reduced weight at the rear would only help the scenario. With all the weight up rear pushing the car on that would not help understeer either. You can always alter suspension to get less, I suspect Renault designed it that way, as too much turn in and all that weight at the back would turn it into a spinning top I am thinking along the lines of A class Merc to much turn in an it falls over so they built in undesteer to prevent too much turn in.

Clee you say that the PRV can be tuned for just as much power, the 2.5 is currently at about 260bhp at the flywheel and the 3 ltr is making a projected 300 bhp ish and TBH how much has that cost, stand alone etc for about £2000 if I remember correctly a complete new engine uprated water pump oil pump new machined liners forged pistons cam reworked head a T28 turbo (which the PRV will require a larger turbo anyway) the J7R has made a proven 285 @ the wheels and has less weight. sorry but the thought of that kind of power to weight appeals to me for a competition car.

Granted it wont sound like a PRV but I would not be doing it for sound I would be doing it for going very quickly If I was to do it. Having already been there I walked away because the transplant is not a straight forward bolt in job by any means and there was so much missing from the GTA shell I had, it was not a financially viable option. It does hold a fascination for me though and would love to see how the car performs handling and acceleration. I know it would be the GTA equivalent of the 110

I have to ask the question. Why did Renault build 6 of these? Whey did they not build more
si21

How much money was spent when the DIY'ers first started tuning the 21 lumps ??Did they get it right first time ?Bet they did

You have to develop these things and that I fear is where a lot of Tony's and my money has gone to .

How much money was spent when the DIY'ers first started tuning the 21 lumps ??Did they get it right first time ?Bet they did

You have to develop these things and that I fear is where a lot of Tony's and my money has gone to .

some people spent money on heads engines but they did not do them themselves they paid Prima prices. Most cars were just pretty much like mine apart from a couple with heads and cams with about 250 bhp modest fueling mods and a larger or hybrid turbo, most turbos were upgraded when they blew up . its only been the last year or so people have started to go stand alone up until then nobody in the 21 world as far as I know was really making the Adaptronic work properly either or at least never fully up and running and mapped.

Craig in 21TOC went stand alone and got 250 - 260 BHP without a cam and was running an old design T34. But he did all the headwork and engine building himself and a stripped out 21 did a 13.2 Qtr He did blow it up about 3 times splitting liners probably because of fueling causing detination, considering he was running standard managment at the time and no rolling road set up; it was all guess work. It can be done on a budget if you can do the builds like yourself. I would appear that the J7R ECU lets you get away with a lot more though in standard form than the PRV ECU.

I was not having a dig Clee all I am saying is that somebody has already done the expensive bit.....JOE! he can source and supply all the parts to give a powerful engine.

You dont have to persuade me that it costs money to develop it takes time too. I have told Tony the same thing when he was ready to give up and sell his GTA. When ever you go away from standard you are going to expect problems .....usually expensive ones.

All i am trying to say is I think that a very powerful J7R lump would be a benifit in many ways. You seem to think I am so biased; not at all I own 2 V6 GTA's and love the sound. This idea from my point of view is purely competion. I have built my Lemans REPLICA (to keep Clee Happy) but I would not dream of putting a J7R into it; I bought it because its V6 and a gorgeous car.

I am not suggesting that everyone dumps their PRV'sfor the J7R just think there are some benefits to be had as loss in weight is usually cheaper and beneficial to perfomance than more power; when you get to a certain point. There must be something in the idea otherwise why would renault have bothered at all?

PS less weight overall just improved the breaking too How much would you spend to lose that kind of weight once you ran out of bits to remove

si (not signing off with numbers anymore in case I get linched at the next northern meet)

The 250 bhp barrier is still there with the 21 lump as much as it is with the PRV . Why go to all the hassle of making an engine of similar tech and power fit the GTA ???