Martin’s PRV bone yard…

by **turbohead** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:38 am

Hi Martin,

of course i am! In whatever direction the storm around me will push me :roll:

Would be very interesting to do!
Is it just the inlet valves, and what material are they?
If i'm right, you already have done a valve with the profile you need and i just have to copy them?

Chris

by **MFaulks** » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Hi Chris,

214N typically, would have to do a magnet check, but yes inlet valves...

As to profile, I want to do a little bit more development before I commit, and then yes it would be copying within reasonable limits a modified valve. I can let you know the critical sections anyway

Thanks,
Martin

by **turbohead** » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:56 pm

Hi Martin!

Still at work aargh

You also could advise me to do a couple of different shapes, for some bench testing if it would bring something, just to say it does not matter to me to do just single pieces for bench testing....

Kind regards
Chris

by **cineman** » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:21 am

Hello Martin

!
Works proceeds here, making the electrical harness for putting a Fenix 3A on a Delorean, then will start making some try with the engine...

I have a question for you: you talked about using roller followers from another renault car wich should work on PRV, what rollers from what car do you think could be adapted ? What real gain should we have from this ? More rpm ? What do you think is worth pushing a PRV max in rpm, in the extreme ? Welter Meunier at lemans had 900hp from PRV, at 8200rpm, so we need really more

?
Andrea

by **MFaulks** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:38 am

Hi Andrea,

Hope all is well with you... I've been having some nightmare weeks at work, need some engine therapy, but might do some wet flow testing to keep me sane :-)

Glad to see you are back on the Fenix 3A :-)

did you keep the knock sensor fitted last time when you were running on your turbo? Can I ask if you could kindly send me those bin files again, and the 25 phase 2 file was it that you thought was a better starting point for forced induction over the n/a bins? I would really appreciate it - lost in my crashed hdd... :-(

I’m back to the blue turbo car now the engine is re-assembled…

Rollers, yep, in the process of sorting them, but have to test some core profiles to get the lift curve right with the geometry before I worry too much about timing.

ZNS4 Le Mans engine :-)

well it was only PRV as far as the crankcase went, everything else was replaced... 4 valve/cylinder, 31 degree included valve angle, Mahle forged pistons, steel rods, steel crank, dry-sumped, separate tappet block etc etc... Race power was 600bhp at 7000rpm.

ZNS4-WM 6.5:1 CR, running 2.8bar max rated 910bhp at 8200rpm, race ran 2.3/2.4 bar producing 650 / 700bhp.

But here's an interesting thought, the Buick V6 3L GTP engine - 2V push rod motor of the same era in single turbo form, produced 900bhp at 2.2bar, 8200 rpm... so there's something to aim for boys :-)

Valve sizes were 51mm inlet, 40.6mm exhaust... so who was it saying you don't need good flowing heads on turbo now... smile :-)

the power is in the head... the work done by the engine is essentially limited by the breathing within the scope of piston speed for the bottom end.

Martin

by **cineman** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:44 pm

MFaulks wrote:Hi Andrea,

Glad to see you are back on the Fenix 3A did you keep the knock sensor fitted last time when you were running on your turbo? Can I ask if you could kindly send me those bin files again, and the 25 phase 2 file was it that you thought was a better starting point for forced induction over the n/a bins? I would really appreciate it - lost in my crashed hdd... I’m back to the blue turbo car now the engine is re-assembled…
Martin

This Fenix 3A will be for the atmo friend car, in this case i think we'll just need to tweek VE and timing table, and rpm... and with Fenix 3A is knowed where to and enought !

Yes, on my turbo engine i have the knock sensor installed, the 2 from the safrane biturbo originals. With the Fenix 3A i used just one of them.
If you remember, now i was running with a Fenix 3A of a R25, but with a BIN of R25T 205cv wich is Fenix 3B, inside,and remapped. It works good BUT i'm quite sure it uses different settings for temperature sensors, cause it works good just in the summer

and in winter is really difficult to start it and it does not make a cold enrichment. This is why i went to megasquirt... it start well in cold and hot now, but i'm having some difficult time to map it and behave "round" like the Fenix !

I have also the original Safrane Biturbo Fenix 3B, this would be great to use and perfect for me, 2 knock input, low imp. injector out, but the code is eprom locked

and i really don't find anywhere HOW to unlock in the eprom or making a modify to the ecu board... i'm really not able to make it boot. Has anyone idea how to unlock this Fenix 3B ? I asked to peoples in france, but they send me just a photo of a modify of a LATE fenix 3B wich was little different then mine

I send you the files and bin again, let me know!

by **MFaulks** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:30 pm

cineman wrote:If you remember, now I was running with a Fenix 3A of a R25, but with a BIN of R25T 205cv which is Fenix 3B, inside, and remapped. It works good BUT I’m quite sure it uses different settings for temperature sensors, cause it works good just in the summer and in winter is really difficult to start it and it does not make a cold enrichment.

I have also the original Safrane Biturbo Fenix 3B, this would be great to use and perfect for me, 2 knock input, low imp. injector out, but the code is eprom locked and i really don't find anywhere HOW to unlock in the eprom or making a modify to the ecu board... i'm really not able to make it boot. Has anyone idea how to unlock this Fenix 3B ? I asked to peoples in France, but they send me just a photo of a modify of a LATE fenix 3B which was little different then mine
I send you the files and bin again, let me know!

I'm sure I can help you on the warm-up transition table; if you send me the bins I will highlight those for you. Yes please send the bins again, 25 and 25 205, I will look at them in more detail... I'm getting my interest back again on this, lost it for a long while whilst I was working on the Renix 1, but the rpm issues have pushed me to move on now to the later ecus and 3B. Can you send a photo of the board you want to unlock, I may have one here. It would be good to start getting good results out of this hardware in the collective community

by **MFaulks** » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:48 pm

Well P4 Chris has been getting on well, and update picture here

Picture says it all

by **MFaulks** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:52 am

As I look at the above picture it reminded me to post the differences in the 2.5 ltr GTA water pump and the later revisions used on the 3ltr Z7X and A610 engines etc. I checked one on a 2.5ltr block, and it does fit straight on, so a cheap-ish upgrade, just need to blank some water outlet feeds. Full details further up this thread.

by **MFaulks** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:57 am

Well I’ve been back on my current favourite topic of trying to squeeze more out of the old 2V unit… and the wet flow is where the OE components, especially the piston high crown, and the head porting start to really impact.

I’ve updated some work on here for those interested:
http://www.guy-croft.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1628

A picture tells more than a 1000 words… this is a crown on a high spec near OE engine, and the clear areas of lack of carbon are burn free… so loss of thermodynamic efficiency and potentially why the engine was known for not being particularly economical on fuel. Possibly further reason for the high swirl ports used on the later 3ltr, shown at the bottom of these pics.

The lower crown of the lower CR version of the 2.5 turbo piston is a definite advantage in this regard. The high crown badly interrupts combustion given the proximity to the plug, as it gives a banana style combustion space. Carbon traces tell the story:

by **MFaulks** » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:06 pm

Anyway, off on to another topic, gear ratios :-)

... and why the GTA / 610 ratios are a bit pants as they stand for a competitive hill climb, and fast road IMO :wink:

On a near standard GTA, the rev limiter really messes the ideal 1st to 2nd change, 2nd to 3rd isn’t so bad. To keep the car balanced, you need to not only change around peak power so the drop in engine speed takes you to around peak torque, but you also need to do it when changing gear is going to match road speed (no sudden jerking of the car and upset of the suspension and poise). The table below gives it for a GTA turbo. You will see that to meet these conditions, you need to make the change from 1st to 2nd at 6500rpm (outside the OE Renix ecu rpm cut), and 2nd to 3rd at 6000 rpm. The torque figures are for Will’s engine. Better spaced gears are really called for, contrary to what some people mute, but here it is black and white, well colour if my upload has worked!

On this point, and coming across an old post, Richard (SimonSays), how did you get on when you tested the following setup sometime back? I know it's really the stepping stone to going to a nice set of close ratio, but for those interested in an intermediate outlay...

just bought an ATB diff for the hillclimb car.

also getting final drive from a R20 4.1-1 i think!

and also using different gear ratios for 3rd 4th and 5th

the standard gta 'box is crap for hillclimbs and sprints, open diff and terrible gear ratios.

hope this will let us use a few more gears, instead of 1st 2nd and 3rd!

Reference: http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... sc&start=0

by **turbohead** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:41 am

Hi Martin!

Very nice work and info again!!! Interesting things about the Le mans race engines! The hell of valve sizes and boost so.... :lol:

To your last post...yes would be very interesting to hear of others experiences with different ratios! Especially as you say the 4.1 final!

Anybody out there??

Chris

by **MFaulks** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:31 pm

HI Chris, thanks... much more behind it though, the more debate the better... just need some debate (on here) then! Laugh :-)

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... highlight=

think you saw that one right?

Well I had started writing up some more, but I'll put up some other links and discussion I have had else where, got to go where the debate his hot :-)

On the subject of cams and rockers... I will come back to this in detail at some point...

Here’s a cross section of the rocker gear:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=prv+v6 ... x=72&ty=91

and if you read my post over here you will have a better idea what I’m referring.

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?3828- ... on&p=58052

and here:

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2455- ... aps/page11

http://dmctalk.org/showthread.php?2455- ... aps/page13

However, the really important information you can’t ascertain from straight timing numbers is blow down potential, rate of lift, and the lobe area that drives time-area i.e breathing potential.