Martin’s PRV bone yard…

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Postby jon_viola » Thu May 23, 2013 12:00 pm

This seems like a big step forward. Brilliant!!
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Postby MFaulks » Fri May 24, 2013 8:03 am

cineman wrote:Hello Martin !
here a pair of quick photos of a 3A i have here. i have 2, one with eprom socket, still in use in the atmo car now, and this one with the same renault code. when i was using the 3A i run the original red throttl pot. i am still using this kind of throttle pot too on my megasquirt setup.
i am quite sure i'm using PTC now on this 3A, while on the renix1 i have also i was using NTC.
This ECU has narrowband o2 input, i setup the innovate wideband controller LC1 NB (0-1V) output to the renix input, and... magic it worked :) we saw the lambda go to 14,7:1 and keeping it. good thing is that from the LC1 i can change this value, making different curve output of his 0-1volt, keeping the true wideband signal as reference.


Morning Andrea,

Thanks for the feedback, and that's great :-)

Right, to verify, I presume you are connected to ecu pins 35 and 17 (0v ref) for you LC-1 “NB Lambda” input, is that correct?

My 3A boards are populated as your board, I have seen some changes to the SMT resistors and transistors on the back, but from what I have traced, related to additional I/O such as aircon etc. Hence, we can talk the same board which is great.

Now, I have changed the resistor fitment for the idle pot, as I found I was not getting 0-100% value swing (I am using a pot, and not using a NB lambda or 0-1V equivalent input – I can do the same with my LM-1), but this is probably not relevant to you using a NB equivalent feedback signal as input. I will detail the changes in the ecu thread when I'm happy I have got the necessary arrangement finalised, nearly there on that one.

If you have a Fenix 3A running in an atmo car, then try this mod with a switch and let me know if you feel any changes when the car is driving, particularly throttle response on / off from idle - fit an IN4148 into D30 on a switch, and try with it switched in and then out. I have seen changes to the injection duty cycle on the scope, but haven't been able to try on the road and put it through the "seat of pants" test. You will find the current vacant location down by the two thin long red SIL resistor packages. Give it a go and let me know how you get on, thanks.

Talking SIL resistor what numbers do you have on yours, look on my post earlier you will see my numbers?

Right, sensors, the D501 is PTC, the 330A base firmware I am using in my Fenix 3A I am currently trying to sort out on the blue turbo GTA is NTC sensors. I have tried R25ph2 205hp software on the board as fitted and setup, and it doesn't read the NTC sensors correctly. So which BIN are you running on the Fenix 3A in your atmo car?

Great to share!

Thanks,
Martin
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby MFaulks » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:02 pm

.
Andrea, if you are tuned in, a quick read of the above post would be appreciated :wink: thanks 8)

Now, back to PRV engine development :arrow:
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Roller rockers and cam for the PRV - yipee :D

Postby MFaulks » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:13 pm

.
Well there has been some progression in recent months, but it has been rather slow. I had been concentrating on sorting some Renix / Fenix ecu issues, and getting F50 finished:

http://www.renaultalpineownersclub.com/ ... 9&start=15

I’ll post an update with some of the gory details, haven’t had the chance yet… will do soon.

On my PRV development front, although linked, progress has been somewhat slower than I had hoped. I have been quietly working on further developing my cam profiles, and some other interesting things, but there are a few related topics, so here goes:

The valve rocker gear of the PRV also charts an interesting development history, and there are lessons and information we can draw from the PSA engineers incremental development of the 2V per chamber theme utilised in their other designs as they share lineage to the PRV; notably the Peugeot 2V heads (chamber and ports), R21 turbo head, cooking Cleo motors, Peugeot 106, 205 GTI 1600, AX GTI, even the Fuego 2.2ltr head, and the R21 8V and 12V are in fact all related with individual tweaks, except only the 8V rocker geometry is the same as the PRV. It is interesting to see how they developed the R21 12V 4 cylinder head from the 8V; casting modifications were only done where necessary, and this further points to the fact that all changes were very deliberately followed down a development route that met a particular engineering need. Cost of change is extremely high in series production, and unless tangible performance improvement in either economy or power resulted, then these modifications would have never been implemented.

Given that the later 4 cylinder engines with the same basic head and chamber arrangement were still being developed and in series manufacture after the PRV was terminated (development dollars still being spent on them), then this gives us further clues as to where we need to be looking to develop our own humble PRV power unit further. Hence, the clues are in the study and analysis of the later engines. I will drop in additional topics as we go, and more to come as john Wheeler has kindly offered that I may use some of his R21 12V pictures as illustration – many thanks John.

So starting with the rocker arms, you can see below how the design was initially introduced in the R30, weight (driving valve bounce, spring load and harmonic issues etc limiting a higher safe rev limit) and material compatibility issues (wear rate of camshafts) etc, led to some considerable re-design effort. The resultant alloy rocker with fused follower pads is quite a significant engineering change and high tech at the time. As you all know both types can be found in the PRV, and the later alloy ones being the ones to use, as mentioned before. The last one on the right is the hydraulic adjuster version, and is found in the last generation of the PRV 3ltr even-fire atmo engines – Laguna, Espace, Citroen XM etc. These certainly cured much of the PRV characteristic clatter (and reduced maintenance need)… so more of refinement for a more discerning public taste than performance per se in this case. It’s heavy and no use to us really. There is a nice article in No. 94 of the Mille miles magazine page 43 on rockers, weights and lightening them. I must say, I haven’t chased after lightening them especially, certainly not after the lower picture.. yes it can happen in a high rev race motor.

Image

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Image

The valve spring failed, and this was in F50, there was some surface corrosion on the inside surface of the coils I hadn’t spotted when installing, this had caused minute surface pit corrosion. This provided the initiation site for a fatigue crack to propagate across the spring core, and eventually fail. You can see the progression of the crack from the surface to the core of the spring under microscope. Quite interesting, but the mess caused was certainly less so, as the spring collapsed, coil bound, snapped the rocker, and the exhaust valve dropped into the chamber… Hence, be very careful when using used springs. You don’t want to see any imperfections, and especially any marks or features breaking through the original shot-peen surface. You have been warned! Unfortunately new springs are NLA from Renault and Simon Auto, I have already tried, and Richard kindly managed to get me the last new OE set from Renault. I have engineered and run other spring arrangements, but for the majority of folk this is too involved and expensive for their application. So if you have any old springs take care of them!

The rocker arm ratio was also increased with the series development, from 1.4, 1.5 to 1.6 in the roller rocker about to follow (far right), and then 2.0:1 in the12V (unfortunately we can’t use them in our heads, and you will see why later). One of the benefits of the higher ratio, is it will yield greater performance when setup with the right cam design; allowing more area under the valve lift time-area integral, hence increased volumetric capability, faster valve opening, and greater lift given the physical constraints that the lobes need to fit and the follower pad size etc.

Image

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I have spoken about the benefits of going to the roller rocker on here, and some of the threads I gave the links to the discussions I have been involved on the DMC forum etc. I will find the page number later if you want to look back and wander over to the other forums. However, it really is the key to opening up higher lift, higher valve acceleration, and hence more aggressive profiles that will narrow the gap to 4V per cylinder technology with the humble PRV. Anyway, I found the rockers quite by accident as I was walking into a scrap yard many years ago and spotted something, not knowing what the head on the side of the bench was, where it had come (nor did the merchant, it had been sat there a long time was all he could note), but I recognised the geometry and general arrangement of the rockers and bought the complete head at risk. I wasn’t able to identify the rockers for some time, but the geometry was indeed correct, and was in fact derived from the PSA stable. I then set about designing a suitable camshaft to work with the roller, taking over a year on and off as the profile is completely different to yield the required lift curve when compared to the OE PRV profiles and geometry. This took some development and repeat grinds were undertaken slowly in conjunction with the cam grinder, until I had something that worked in principle. I could then tweak from there to get the basic timing, LCA, lobe area etc that I needed to design a new series of roller profiles for the PRV. I’m just about to cut a final cam from billet, as the roller pressure angle and reduced contact area excludes the use of chilled cast blanks, and hence the price is a premium, but then this is where the real horse power is going to be released for the 2V.

Here’s an article you can read from Renault on its development, focused on the friction reduction properties, and hence reduced part throttle losses. I’m more focused on the performance benefits, but the reduced friction is really significant – see the valve train paragraph.

http://www.renault.com/en/Lists/Archive ... iction.pdf

Here’s the roller rocker jigged up on bench timing check and tests, with a chilled cast cam as a development piece. I’ve got some changes around the desired base circle diameter, but this can be sorted in the first billet cnc cut.

Image

Image

Image

Image

More to follow on this, plus other developments in the later 2V chambers from PSA, R21 8 and 12V arrangements etc on this topic.


As an aside some interesting links:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/19/ebay ... pe-engine/

I think I put this one up before:
http://www.a310alpine.com/PRV%20V6%20Resto.htm
Last edited by MFaulks on Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby turbohead » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:21 pm

:D
Starts getting reeeeaaalllyyy interesting!!!
Touching new lands!!!

Thanks for sharing, unpayable informations!

I'm also back in action soon with some interesting externals!!!
Still working on the finish of the singleseater to be able to drive a bit this season! ....but then.....
:!: :D

Go on! Make a rocket out of that humble! :twisted:
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Postby MFaulks » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:58 pm

turbohead wrote::D
Starts getting reeeeaaalllyyy interesting!!!
Touching new lands!!!

Thanks for sharing, unpayable informations!

I'm also back in action soon with some interesting externals!!!
Still working on the finish of the singleseater to be able to drive a bit this season! ....but then.....
:!: :D

Go on! Make a rocket out of that humble! :twisted:


Thank you for your feedback Chris, it's nice to know someone is reading and appreciates it :-)

This is huge for the PRV, and this is real step changing differentiation; I think innovative and original thought captured, not run of the mill turbo and cam stuff, even if I say so :-) I don't see others doing it, nor sharing to this degree, I'm sure it will now be copied, as all good things are :-). irrespective, I'm really excitted about this, applying some later technology, and not taking the easy route of following a common well beaten track... And more still in planing by adding 2 more valves into the mix reliably.. Happy to be challenged though :-)

Thanks,
Martin
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby jon_viola » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:46 pm

Mmmm sounds exciting!

Will look forward to hearing more..
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Postby clee » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:48 pm

I'm looking forward to hearing the engine :lol: :P :wink:
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Postby MFaulks » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:06 pm

.
This is a nice little article...

http://www.velocetoday.com/alpine-a310-v6/

.. dream dream... I'm going all fuzzy in the head for a nice A310 with a quad cam 3.5 ltr 24v motor in it :wink: ... I had better pinch myself...
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby clee » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:13 pm

you will go fuzzy when I bitchslap you upside ya head :lol:

FOCUS FAULKSIE FOCUS !!
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Postby MFaulks » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:19 pm

clee wrote:I'm looking forward to hearing the engine :lol: :P :wink:


yeah yeah, I know, some of us will be able to do it in stereo.. ordering roller cams on Monday turbo and atmo set 8)
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby MFaulks » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:19 pm

.
Well with one thing and another time has been short, however over the past few weeks have caught up to almost looking good with my spinning plates, most of it concentrated on head flow work and clearing jobs... :D

Will's beast is up and running again, fired up straight from the get go with the new R25ph2 ecu, needs full tune, but sounded nice and crisp. So over to Will now to finish off various bits and bobs, and then I’ll get back to the ecu setup for real :twisted: I didn't get any pictures, but I'm sure Mr. Richards Jnr will put some up at some point.

Chris (Turboheads) heads are all done now, so engine assembly time really, once roller cams are cut, but will detail that over on his thread.

A little diversion putting together a tuned and over-bored 1235cc Suzuki GS 4 pot motor mounted in Harris frame for the Classic TT just finished. Came in with a good result of 11th overall against the pros, so well happy with that given the bike came together in just over 3 weeks... read as a fair bit of stress, but pictures below (taken before leaving for the event week last Thursday) :wink:

Image

Image

Cedric now has a set of heads that the valves seal, so hopefully looking good for his build when he gets back off holiday.

But more importantly, the P4 replica with the 3ltr n/a 12V now lives.. :D It sounds fantastic, various issues getting up and running, mostly 20 year old electrics that starting failing having been brought out of slumber, and a clutch that doesn't disengage (most likely the travel on the master cylinder, all part of Nobles setup), but I'm sure Chris will have that all sorted very quickly. Really good to hear it crack into life, so hopefully see it on the road before long and catch the last of the good weather. I only have the two pictures as my phone memory was full, but Chris took a video, so will post as soon as I have it. He really has dressed this car and engine up to look simply stunning, full credit to him, especially when you look back at it's humble beginnings 8) I have a bit more serious ecu setup tuning to do, but I don't think it's too far off now, and with another day visit should be pretty much done.

Image

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I’ve got to get back to LTH’s GTA turbo, my workshop buddies car F50, and then I’m looking good, may even get to do something for myself lol!

Martin
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Postby clee » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:07 am

Well done MoFo .
Clearing the backlog at last .That P4 looks sweet as
8)
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Postby MFaulks » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:29 am

.
Thanks Lee :-) I have to say it's one of those you really wish it was yours!! It does look stunning...

Chris was over the moon we got it running, I was a little disappointed we couldn't get a gear and drive out of the garage; the slave is only travelling about 5-6mm, which doesn't seem like anywhere near enough?
What is it normally? Ran out of time, but didn't look like a bleed issue as it didn't have a lack of movement, just not enough or too small master possibly? Hey ho, getting there at last though..
... A diamond is only a piece of coal that did well under pressure... PRV afflicted, may be I need to squeeze harder!!!!

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Postby clee » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:58 pm

12 mm ish at the slave .
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