Electrical breakdown whilst running. clicking relay. SOLVED

Bo!!ocks, sh!t, Pi$$

This car is not winning my love at the moment. Today was going to be a simple Alpine day. Just fit new wiper arms, check coolant level and take for a nice 31 mile test drive whilst the sun is out.

Was just sitting in the car, engine idling and testing out the wash wipes when the engine cut out (never has before) and there was an obvious relay click, click, click, click with flashing zigzag orange light on dash. So fun is over for now, here's a video of how things stand.

https://youtu.be/kfu8cd3r2PI

The clicking / flashing starts as ignition is turned on. Whatever the problem is, it doesn't prevent the car from cranking over nicely. I can no longer hear the fuel pumps priming as they should.

I'm happy the voltage of the battery is good, and connected a jump battery as well just to be sure. I only appear to have this one main relay in the vicinity of the ECU but remember clee saying there is usually another but this has not been located. Bearing in mind the engine was actually running when the failure occured, where would you guys look first?

I seem to remember a similar set of symptoms in another thread but for the life of me can't find it.

I tried replacing the relay with one from a Range Rover but with what appear to be the same switching layout for the pins bar the switching back to the centre unused contact when power is off. With this relay there was no clicking, but just a dull constant zigzag line. Engine turned over, but still would not start.

Relays for pumps and injectors are under the cover between the rear seats,where the ECU lives .Sounds like one or the other has gone tits up ....they are connected hence why you are getting electronic warning light .Bish bash two minute job .Std 4 pin 30amp relay,just pop to local factors.

EDIT

Ahh feck just remembered ...I could only find one relay on your car innit .The other seemed to be tucked down into the tunnel cover ....you will need to get that lifted a bit and see what's what.3 small screws on either side of the tunnel ,undo and you should get access .

Relays for pumps and injectors are under the cover between the rear seats,where the ECU lives .Sounds like one or the other has gone tits up ....they are connected hence why you are getting electronic warning light .Bish bash two minute job .Std 4 pin 30amp relay,just pop to local factors.

Hi Lee, I was still editing my original post when you posted. I just tried a replacement 40a relay with no luck. That other relay remains missing though. Do you think I should be searching for that? When the engine came out, wouldn't you have removed the loom complete up to an including the ECU connector?

Could this be a fuel pump failure or something? Just odd that it happened during running.

I was editing whilst you were editing .Normally I disconnect the loom at the ECU and pull it all through but on yours couldn't because the wires ran under the tunnel so undone all at the lump and left connected at ECU end ....knew I should have feckin looked further but it was all working fine ......I did pull out a dorty great 70 amp relay that was doing nothing.I think it was from the alarm/immob,wired into stop starter solenoid.
Try over riding the relay switching and see if the pumps run .Check both pumps are running or not as would be very unusual for them both to fail at the same time

I was editing whilst you were editing .Normally I disconnect the loom at the ECU and pull it all through but on yours couldn't because the wires ran under the tunnel so undone all at the lump and left connected at ECU end ....knew I should have feckin looked further but it was all working fine ......I did pull out a dorty great 70 amp relay that was doing nothing.I think it was from the alarm/immob,wired into stop starter solenoid.
Try over riding the relay switching and see if the pumps run .Check both pumps are running or not as would be very unusual for them both to fail at the same time

So this is the relay that is visible and clicks....


Pins 1 (small brown wire) and pin 2 (small yellow) provide the switching signal to close the circuit between pin 3(large red) and pin 5(large brown)



What is this relay actually switching (large red & brown wires) and where is the signal from (small yellow and brown).

What relay is missing on my car and what is its function?

I assume you mean jumper across pins 5&3 to see if pumps run?

[BIG_MVS]

Crank sensor?

Also check the wiring to the injectors the connector is between the turbo and the right hand bank.

So this is the relay that is visible clicks....


Pins 1 (small brown wire) and pin 2 (small yellow) provide the switching signal to close the circuit between pin 3(large red) and pin 5(large brown)

What relay is missing on my car and what is its function?

Any chance of the model year of your Alp ?

Any chance of the model year of your Alp ?

Hi John. 1988

Thinking about this a bit more (dangerous, I know), and assuming that the relay I can see is for the fuel pumps, is it fair to assume that if bypassing the contacts makes the pumps run, then the problem is either from the switching source or the relay itself?

The substitute relay I tried did not fix the problem. It appeared to switch ok but no longer clicked repeatedly with ignition on,rather, the orange zigzag ecu light lit constantly but dimly and still no start. I think this means it's likely to be a failure elsewhere than the relay itself.

I need to track down the other relay which I assume is for the injectors?

What about an earthing issue somewhere i.e. main fuel pump. Could that cause this type of issue? Given that it's only been a couple of weeks since the header tank emptied its coolant, should I check that area first i.e. alternator is underneath? Wish I knew electrics a little better! Suppose I will eventually.

EDIT (Still thinking ) Lee, what about that fekked suppressor thing that was taken off the fuel pump, could issue be in that region?

2ND EDIT (Still searching)... this sounds similar, hope it turns out to be something as simple....

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=311

Lee, another question, do I remember correctly that you removed what appeared to be a superfluous earth strap (even though it was red!) ? If so, where was it going from and to?

Earth strap he's talking about is for ECU,goes into the main engine harness Bolted to rhd rocker cover,worth checking as has been off .Check if both pumps are dead .

Hi John. 1988

Thanks for that ...... always good to know the model year as I have manuals for each year and they do vary quite a bit.
Anyway .... back to the subject. Below is a pic from the '88 manual showing the positions of the relays around the ECU.
It might be worth checking ... if you have not done so already .... that the ECU plug is fully home.
Hope this helps.

....... is it fair to assume that if bypassing the contacts makes the pumps run,

Be very careful if you try this ...... you have seen the size of the Red and Brown cables that feed the pump when energised ...... if you just link them and a pump is faulty with a short, then the wiring is at risk of overheating and catching fire .... remember there is no fuse in the pump circuit.
If you want to try this, just touch it on, and listen .... if the pumps do not start immediately ...... disconnect and inspect pumps.
BTW, the pumps are wired in parallel so will start and stop together ...... even when priming, both pumps run.

....... is it fair to assume that if bypassing the contacts makes the pumps run,

Be very careful if you try this ...... you have seen the size of the Red and Brown cables that feed the pump when energised ...... if you just link them and a pump is faulty with a short, then the wiring is at risk of overheating and catching fire .... remember there is no fuse in the pump circuit.
If you want to try this, just touch it on, and listen .... if the pumps do not start immediately ...... disconnect and inspect pumps.
BTW, the pumps are wired in parallel so will start and stop together ...... even when priming, both pumps run.

Very helpful thanks John. I have a fused jumper wire I made up some years back to test the electrics on my old Range Rover classic after sinking it in about 4 feet of a water! Think I'll dig that out for the test. I'm hoping this is a simple earthing issue as it seems to replicate the symptoms as posted by simonsay74 in thread linked above.

By the looks of your diagram, it's the injection relay on my car that is "missing" and possibly tucked up in the tunnel instead of behind the cover. Do you think it's possible the injection relay could somehow cause the fault as it is?

Hope to get a bit more diagnostic time today and will report back. Is the orange zigzag line on the dash directly related to the ECU . If the ecu was getting intermittent power, would that explain the flashing / dimming of the orange light? Questions, questions.

Hope to be back on finer topics such as bleeding the cooling system very soon!

Can't help much on the possible cause but on your question about the electronic incident warning light, that always flickers when it comes on, rather than being solid. At least, that's my experience from two such incidents: one, an open-circuit flywheel TDC sensor (doesn't sound like your issue) and secondly a bad cold-start sensor.

Sounds like there's a sensor or something that's talking to the ECU not behaving. My TDC sensor (known issue with Renaults apparently) just reach a certain point where when they get hot, they go open circuit. Once it cools down it works again for a bit. Fuel pumps (which you should hear when ignition switch is at 'run') and starter motor all function but without TDC, the ECU won't send fuel to the injectors. Just in case any of this rings a bell...

Jon

this sounds similar, hope it turns out to be something as simple....
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=311

Happy to report that the fault was due to the earth connection as referred to in the thread from 2004. The hours of reading this forum are beginning to pay dividends.

The bolt securing the ecu earth into the rh rocker cover was not secure. The hole is threaded but the would not tighten. This area also bore the brunt of the expansion bottle leak which couldn't have helped. Removed the bolt , cleaned the area and connections and added some spacer and a spring washers and although it wont tighten to much torque, seems good enough for now. If it doesn't hold, will have to re-tap slightly larger or find another earthing point. As a bonus side, the slightest of misfires at idle that had appeared after remedial work has gone so all good for now. Took the oportunity to test with the new rover pump relay which worked and will now travel as a moving spare

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445602252.229774.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1445602105.353945.jpg

Thanks to all of you for your help and suggestions.... even thought it turned out to be simple earth problem, its good to know for future reference that a repeatedly clicking relay and flashing ecu light is probably a result of ecu power issues. The information in this thread taught me a lot and might help others in future too.

Now then, back to road testing....